Conversations on a Religious Board
In this debate we have been discussing how men have been taking advantage of women's deception, and how God is turning this around.
I
Comment: God didn't set up polygamy. That was man's doing. But the basic structure of being in the sinful world and world of toil where one can have such problems as manifest through social systems is the result of the curse. But the specifics are all man's doing.
Ans: Sure. Didn't say it wasn't. But it was the Lord that cursed Eve into being ruled by men. It seems then, that if men have taken advantage of this (and even men will admit it) that things could easily be reversed so that men will also learn what it feels like. I'll tell you though, that women will not abuse their positions in the same way - because they will know they get their authority only through love - in other words, only through God. Men sometimes forget this.
Comment: Right because they translated that way. But in the actual Hebrew it uses the term "teshuqa" for desire, which means turning and not desire.
Ans: First of all, your terms do not necessarily negate my interpretation of this passage - it can still mean the same thing as what I believe. But how, if your own interpretation turns out right, does this make any difference? 'Turning to him' for physical protection, or for emotional feedback, or sexual protection, or even intellectual imput all seems to be part and parcel of it. I do, however think that her hidden crime was sexual in nature, and her punishment was related accordingly.
Comment: Now in the Jerusalem Talmud it is used of turning, and in sources before that. But after, in the Babylonian Talmud for example it came to be used of desire. So you have to examine its use before a certain point. If you can find it get hold of a book by Katherine Bushnell called God's Word to Women cira 1923. It's extremely rare but can be found. Bushnell studies languages at Northwestern and wrote a book about Women in the Bible. She was a sufferagette.
Ans: I can see your point, but I still don't see how this would help me. I trust the writers of the Bible, because I think they were assigned by God to translate and publish it for our times and our cultures. Why would I turn to a person from a different era, and different cultural influences? Was she also given the job of interpreting the Bible for me?
Comment: Katherine Bushnell was a woman. She's the one who did the study to prove that Teshuqa means "turning." And she documents with the Jerusalem Talmud and other early sources. Of course it doesn't say that in modern Enlgish trasnlations because they've all been influenced by the Babylonian Talmud and the Mesoretic text.
Ans: Ok. But was she also inspired by God, and does she title her work "The Holy Bible"? That is the only name the Lord has given me that he puts his stamp of approval on. The Spirit confirms it in my Spirit - so why should I listen to you, or her?
Comment: Maybe she wasn't as much to blame. Adam sinned knowingly and Eve was decieved.
Ans: I dislike the word 'blame' here, because it serves no purpose. And even though Paul implies that it was the deception of women that makes her subject to their authority, I think that this same deception may also 'save' them in the end. If it is the man's turn, she will use her new-found authority in Christ, and God, to turn things around for them.
Comment: She should have obeyed God, but Adam might be more blamewrothy than Eve. After all Paul said "through one man sin entered the world." But so what? I thought your point was to blame God for things. I don't see how that makes God blameworthy.
Ans: Where did you get the impression I am blaming God?
Comment: Shades of Robert Graves, don't tell me your into that hocum about a female part of the Trinity? The white Godess??? Yikes!
Ans: And why do you insist on labeling things like this? Why do you distrust so easily without looking at the logic of it, and the evidence from which it comes? Is it that men think that they should always be in control? Because that is what it would result in, you know. The more you fight the truth that can give you life, the harder it will be to lift your head in the end, because you'll be so embarassed.
Comment: What is exaggerated? Why couldn't Adam tell her?
Ans: As before, this is what I believe - that Adam was in fact the one to tell her, but that when she repeated it to the serpent, it came out exaggerated from what the Lord had told Adam originally. Where would she have gotten the exaggeration from? Was it her own mind that did this? Or was she repeating it just exactly as she had been told by Adam?
Comment: Why is that not being warned?
Ans: Are we on the same page here? I think I have answered this question. It does not say in the Bible that the Lord warned her, but it is reasonable to assume that Adam did. When he did, it was either exaggerated from that source, or she built it up unnecessarily in her own mind. She needed to eat of the tree of knowledge, just not before she ate of the tree of life first, and that 'she would die if she even touched it', was an exaggeration which somehow was planted in her mind. Where did it come from?
Comment: Warning is warning, why would that make a difference?
Ans: In case you haven't noticed - we do in fact need knowledge - so it should not harm us at all. But with the warning coming from the wrong source, or second-hand, like from Adam (or maybe even from the serpent himself), the possibility of it being distorted because of ulterior motives become more likely. She was getting direction from someone who wanted to implant an excess amount of fear into her - and for what reason? So that she would be scared to death of it, so that she wouldn't go near it? But the fact is, she needed to! And this is what set her up for deception - it had been received by her in exaggerated form, and now she could see some truth coming from the serpent in that it had advantages for her as well. It seems that deception was coming from Adam as well as the serpent - and they were maybe even in cohoots with one another.
Comment: I can see how coming from God it would have more force, but what reason is there to believe that she would regard it any less from Adam?
Ans: Again, "God" wasn't involved here, only the Lord God was. But he wasn't speaking to Eve, only the serpent was. That it would have had more force is an understatement, but your own deception has blinded you to the subleties. Adam already thought he was the 'boss' so to speak, over Eve. But what he had to do was get her to agree with that. Enter, the serpent, to deceive her into undermining herself. It worked, and she, like all the rest of the female world came under Adam's authority once more. This is the way the Lord God had designed it originally, until it was discovered that Adam really did need a partner. This 'need' for a wife, put Adam in a vulnerable place, and not in the position that the Lord wanted him in. It could easily have turned around so that Eve would now be in authority over Adam. So a way had to be devised, quickly, so that she would be deceived into eating from the tree of knowledge (his tree) before the tree of life (her tree). This is what is happening now. Women needed to be deceived in the beginning, because the only way men would work, or protect the female, is if she gave him most of the credit. Now, however, women do not need this anymore from their men, and they can protect themselves. Also, through men's own institutions and laws women can take dominion. The big difference is that men took authority out of selfish ambition, which created death - but women will take authority out of love (or for God), which creates life. It is God that gives a person authority, not the Lord - even though this is the way it has been in the past. If Eve hadn't been deceived in the first place, she wouldn't have survived. But Eve must now realize that Adam has been deceived in the end, or the human race will not survive.
Diane
II
More on the deception of men in the end times.
Comment: "RE: seeking to understand" The underlying premise...to your question appears to be an underlying tension between women and men...
Ans: There is underlying tension which many people do not recognize because they are deceived even now. I'm not trying to create it, but it is there just the same.
Comment: and, because of abuse of women (through the ages) by men, you are looking for spiritual "fairness"...
Ans: I'm saying that this is the way that God works, and I see it in my own life all the time. It would only be just if I have taken advantage of someone else's deception, that I should be taught the same lesson in future. Of course I can always get out of this if I repent of it, and show this change in my actions.
Comment: ...please let me know if that is incorrect... > >In any case, does it not appear today that both men and women are in the same position as far as sin is concerned? That men tempt women (and sometimes they fall) and women tempt men (and sometimes they fall) etc...
Ans: Oh sure. I agree. But the difference is in the numbers, and in the reasons they do it. Women were deceived in the beginning into believing they weren't worth as much as men. And men in turn have been using this to reward their own work immeasurably more than women's in the home. Men are still taking advantage of this, and our society is suffering for it - because women are leaving their traditional work behind. Soon enough it will be realized that men's rules do not work if women do the same things as them, in working for money and careers. Women will have to be acknowledged in the home for what they are worth to society. Men will realize they have been deceiving themselves through taking advantage of women's deception.
Diane
III
Here we have someone who wants more evidence from scripture
Comment: Yet you still fail to prove your opinion with Scripture
Ans: Ok, let's put it another way. Can a father or a son exist in this world without a mother? By their very titles, a mother had to have been involved somewhere. And have you never learned that the physical world is patterned after the Spiritual world? (If you haven't seen this in your own life, you must be brain-dead) As woman is gaining strength in this world - she is also gaining strength in the Spiritual world. Eve was deceived in the beginning, and just so she undermined herself through allowing her mother to be hidden from our sight. Whereas we needed this time to gestate within the mother, and to recognize that we must get out of the womb in order to continue to live. Jesus' death on the cross and his subsequent going to the heart of the earth, was the point of fertilization for the human race. My conclusion? The beliefs of the children must wake up to all these things, in order to come out of the womb of the mother (Jesus referred to it as being born - go figure) for it is in our spiritual recognition of her existence that we have any chance to come into the life that is really life. We must choose this for ourselves, that is all. You, in your anger, are turning away your Mother, and subsequently the life she can bring you. If you have a Father, you must have a Mother, for one does not exist without the other.
Comment: She (Eve) was Not existing inside of Adam...if this is what you're implying. She was created by God from one of adams ribs. A RIB...that's what was inside of Adam.
Ans: She was in fact, part of Adam physically, and spiritually. In order to start the ball rolling for this part of creation, the first man/seed (Adam) had to divide in two - into male and female parts. Then they could pro-create. And what do you think happened to the second Adam on the cross, if not that he was also divided? How do you interpret the splitting of the temple into two at Jesus' death? This is what happens when any seed germinates, or a sperm is swallowed up by the egg. The seed has to suffer death in order to bring the female out of himself. On the outside of the lamp, he is male, but on the inside (spiritually that is, remember the dove?) he was/is female. Where Jesus was the second serpent on the stake, inside of him was first a dove.
Comment: So God created man to be both male AND female, huh? Once again...can you back this with Scripture? The actual meanings of the verses that you attempted to use in supporting your other beliefs have been established for a very long time.
Ans: Established by who? Just because men have dominated our Bible interpretation in the past, and come to certain conclusions, cannot women come to other conclusions, in order to bring us a more complete concept, and a better result? If man's interpretation always ends in death, cannot women expand on it in order to bring us life? What makes you think that women do not have a responsibility in this? Are men the only ones that are right all the time. Nonsense.
Comment: Can you give a better defense here?
Ans: Elohim is plural in Genesis 1, and it must be read in context, for the title takes on the characteristics of the person/entitities described. Elohim created man in his own image - "male and female, he created them". That means that Elohim, being more than one, must be male and female, the same as man. Male or female may represent mankind, so in keeping with this, we may, in literature refer to the female as man also. In the physical realm, man is male-dominant. In the Spiritual realm, she is female-dominant. God has created herself out of man.
Comment: Yes REALLY, I HAVE gods (elohim) can be used to describe angels(Ps. 8:4-6, Heb 2:7), God Himself (Gen. 1:1), or human judges in Israel at that time.
Ans: As above, this is why it is a must to read the word within its context. Elohim is used in much the same way as the word 'man'. You don't know if I am referring to male, female, boy or girl in truth, until I put it into a sentence.
Comment: These verses are telling us that these men in power who judged others (who were loosely referred to as gods) were themselves unjust, and that they would die just like the men that they really were. Once again...if there truly are more than ONE God...then God is a liar. This can be proven with the numerous verses where God claims to be the ONLY God that has been, or ever will be.
Ans: Loosely referred to as gods? Where do you get this idea? If God calls men 'gods' why argue with him?
Comment: John 10:34-36 shows Jesus pointing to the fact that if the judges in Israel (again, also known as "gods" since they were in the position of judging) were known as "gods" themselves, how much more could Jesus call Himself the Son of God?
Ans: That's right, and Jesus was pointing out the same thing to his accusers at the time. If God called them gods, how could they be angry with him for stating that he was of a lower station? He had the perfect right to call himself God also, just the same as his accusers believed about themselves because of scripture. Just by the fact that Jesus said, "...and scripture cannot be broken..." is telling us that this was not to be taken lightly - or 'loosely' as you put it.
Comment: This is why Jesus told them to believe His works so that they would realize that He was in fact the Son of God, and that the Father was in Him. To reiterate though, judges were in fact, referred to as "gods".
Ans: It wasn't a moot referral though. It was a serious title. He fully intended that men should be gods, but they were denying that right by being unjust - so they would die mere men, by their own actions. God's plan was that they would be 'gods' themselves.
Comment: One in three is definitely supported in Scripture. But NOT the way you explain it! If the Holy Spirit is constantly referred to as "HE" or "HIM", then how would HE be a mother??
Ans: As above. The term can be confused easily, because people do not realize that the male term can be used either way. It has to be read in context. For inside every male there is obviously the genes of his mother, a female. Likewise there is in every female, the spiritual belief in a man that would be her partner one day.
Comment: And I ask again...how do you back this using the Bible?? I'm not asking what "could" fit into this doctrine. I'm asking you to tell me what the Bible actually says about the three persons of the Trinity. Last time I checked...not a single one of them was a "SHE".
Ans: You are living in a world whereby you think that the male way of thinking is the only one that exists. You look at the Bible and interpret it according to what you read, and try to assess it's true meaning. I look at it backwards from you for in truth the Spiritual realm works backwards from the physical. I look at the results in this world first, and assess the scriptures in relation to that. God speaks those things that are not, as though they were. This is creating through prophesy. And Jesus was a master of it. Don't be upset just because you aren't as good at it. If we want to correct what ails this world, we have to leave the male-way of thinking behind, and start following God's voice instead. I'm not saying that you are going to believe me in my interpretation, looking at it through your glasses. I'm saying that the results of my beliefs will be true soon enough, despite what you believe right now. I'm using the Bible for the way it was meant to be used - in order to bring life. Your way only brings male-domination, and death.
Comment: Diane...I'm not trying to "win". Besides...Jesus has already won for me.
Ans: Why would you try so hard to fight life, if you don't think winning is more important than anything? You don't see this in yourself, that's all. To just leave it in Jesus hands is to take the easy way. It's like saying, 'Not only did Jesus die on the cross for me, I don't have to think for myself or accept his sacrifice, because he did the 'believing' for me too.' You have to accept the truth for yourself if you want to benefit from his sacrifice. That is your part.
Comment: The very fact that you and so many others are pushing all of this New Age deception is only more proof of what the Bible says about the last days, and the deception that will be prevalent during this time. Everybody has a part in proving God's word.
Ans: And Wisdom is proved right by her children, just as Jesus said she was. This Wisdom was a part of him, and a tree of life for those who embrace her. You must choose this way for yourself. For she is the source of life, and if you don't believe in her, then you also choose not to exist.
PS - I'm thinking that we have come so far on this subject that we are really off-topic. If you want to continue, we can go on in private, or we can start a different thread. I'll leave it up to you. I have no qualms about giving out my email address if you choose.
Comments: I think that we should leave it the Biblicalway. Not because it somehow, someway, benefits me. But because that's what the Bible says.
Ans: It's about as Biblical as it can get. However I am judging the tree by it's fruit. This is also an instruction that we are supposed to follow, according to the Bible.
Comment: Another point: Adam was deceived also. Why wasn't the Father hidden from our sight??
Ans: Adam wasn't deceived. He sinned with his eyes open. That is what brought the death sentence upon him, I believe. He knew what he was doing.
Comment: The ways YOU look at Scripture, doesn't mean a thing. Your "doctrine" is NOWHERE in the Bible. It always amazes me how someone will look at a very straight-forward verse or doctrine in the Bible and assume that there MUST BE more. Some doctrines and verses do indeed call for further investigation from other verses or interpretation. But God being a man isn't one of them. And when all is said and done...you still haven't proven your belief with Scripture.
Ans: I don't have to prove anything, and that is the point I think. We will see the truth for ourselves, and all know it. Jesus gave himself as the ultimate sacrifice when he was nailed to the cross and died for us. His work for us was finished on the cross.
Comment: Again...where is this fertilization thing found in Scripture???
Ans: If he is the seed of his father, then understanding of what happens between the sperm and the egg, or what happens to a seed when it germinates is all you have to know to put two and two together.
Comment: When we're born...it's with a sinful nature. When we're born again it signifies that we have made a new start, (by the grace of God) and are now NOT under sins grip. It's an indication of going from spiritual death to spiritual life in Jesus.
Ans: You are forgetting that the process is not yet complete, for, "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time...as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? Bur if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently." (Rom 8:22-25)
Comment: If God is a woman, then who was before, or even with her, when "she" chose to create Adam?
Ans: It was the Lord God that created Adam (that is, the male of the Godhead) to be just like himself in Spirit.
Comment: Women DON'T procreate all by themselves. Was there a man-god in your female god's life?
Ans: Yes.
Comment: Or was this female god of yours omnipotent...She IS God in the sense that she needed no man to create life?
Ans: She is creating herself out of man. She has used man as a starting point.
Comment: And if your omnipotentfemalegod didn't need a man, then why does my omnipotent God (who happens to be a "He") need a woman?
Ans: She was created in his imagination. While he is created in her heart. But in truth, the heart comes before the mind and this is what we must realize to be born into her. She is the source of life - the first organ to be formed in the body, next comes the brain (or mind) of God. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, she was in effect switching the order of formation of our Body in the Godhead. Because she chose to believe in knowledge, before she chose life, she lost out her value in this world, and gave herself second-place status.
Comment: The Temple didn't split in two. The Temple CURTAIN that separated the Holy Place and The Most Holy Place, was torn in two to indicate that the barrier between God and humanity had been done away with.
Ans: That's right, he was splitting himself in half, to expose his inner part, so to speak.
Comment: Men haven't come to their interpretations to boost their own "status" above women.
Ans: Oh no. They were just going along with the deception that women had already fallen for. They already believed they were not worth as much as the men, so why wouldn't the men take advantage? When women open their eyes to this, then men must follow. They cannot help it. They are like the brains of the body, while women are the hearts. When women follow what they know in their hearts, men must go along with it.
Comment: They were interpreting what was there. YOU on the hand, are making the Bible say something that's not the slightest bit visible in the Bible.
Ans: I see it all over the Bible, because I know in my heart that it is truth.
Comment: So that we don't get confused, I'll post the verse. Gen 1:27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God, He created him; male and female He created them. "Male and female He created them"...a factual account of God's actions. Nobody else created male and female. Why would you assume that God must be a woman because of this verse.
Ans: The woman was created last in this world. But according to Jesus, many who are last will be first. In the Spiritual world (that is the opposite of the image he/she created us in) everything is backwards. All images are backwards from the real thing. So if man came first in the physical world, woman came first in the Spiritual world.
Comment: One other point; If God is omnipotent, why would He need some outside help to accomplish...anything!? My point is...why would God have to be a woman to create life? Remember...we're talking about an omnipotent, supernatural God...not finite human beings.
Ans: God is only omnipotent after learning all the knowledge there is to know. He/she is learning at the same time as mankind is learning. The parents are learning through their own children.
Comment: If you're talking about the God of the Bible, then I know you're talking about a "He". Human judges is a totally different area. The plurality of elohim in Genesis is a verse (along with others in Scripture) that possibly points directly to the Trinity... Not the "gender" of God!
Ans: Oh really, then why is Wisdom female? And the first of his creation? (Prov 8:22) Is she not the craftsman at his side? (Prov:30) She is his partner. Only he created her before himself.
Comment: It's a fact that "gods" didn't necessarily have to represent some supernatural being. Even atheists on this site will agree with this...not because I say so, but because it was a fact in Israel at the time.
Ans: Yes, but as children of God, we can expect to grow up to be Gods ourselves.
Comments: But I say again. If these men were gods in the supernatural sense, then God can be proven to be a liar with His own word!
Ans: They were not gods in the supernatural sense, because they had not yet learned how to be. It was a prophesy about them in the future.
Comment: Isaiah 43:10 leaves absolutely NO ROOM for any other gods...period.
Ans: No other God in the physical.
Comment: God has already told us that there were no gods before Him, and that there will be none after Him. So to imply that God intended them to be gods, is totally against what the Bible says.
Ans: By our own choice we chose the God of this world. He is one and the same.
Comment: The thing that you don't even really is the fact that your context is simply not at all evident in God's word. It's simply NOT THERE. Your context is no context at all....it's simply an opinion that very obviously ISN'T supported in the Bible.
Ans: Wisdom is proved right by her children. Time will tell.
Comment: The is neither male nor female to God. If the Bible was distorted by man as a way of keeping women down, I can almost guarantee you that they would've taken this verse out of the Bible.
Ans: Not exactly. As above, the man just didn't argue with what the woman already believed through her denial of her side of the Godhead. She demeaned herself, and the man took advantage of that.
Comment: But they didn't! New Age mumbo jumbo is merely old age deception in another package. Diane...you're lost right now. You still have time to get saved...the way that will actually bring eternal life.
Ans: Again, wisdom is proved right by her children.
Comment: I dont know how you came to this conclusion at all. Jesus died for me, I admitted being a sinner, asked Jesus into my life...and now I'm saved. your way of salvation remains absent from Scripture in every way. Why would anybody simply want to take your word for it?
Ans: Because in "choosing" wisdom for yourself, you also choose life. You will see by the results in your knowledge and what happens in your life.
Diane
IV
It's all in the process
Comment: From what you say, even though I'm a born-again, blood-bought, Bible-believing, God-fearing, Christ-honoring, Spirit-filled, heaven-bound Christian, somehow I don't get any "life" from that.
Ans: This was the first step, but even the disciples believed in Jesus while he was alive. Yet they had to go through some real life-changing spiritual moments in order to advance to the next level of understanding. It was a process of learning and getting closer to the life that was promised. Jesus death and resurrection for instance was hidden from them during his ministry. They didn't understand how it all worked until they went through the pain of it. This advance will be much like it.
Comment: On the other hand, Diane, you worship a hermaphroditic god--male, as well as female--who requires an education, since he/she/it hasn't always been terribly omniscient.
Ans: The male actually needs the education in order to be the head of the body, or our 'representative' as the tree of knowledge. He is the ultimate in knowledge, and I get mine from him in turn.
Comment: Your own personal interpretation of the world around you, both physical and spiritual, supersedes the Bible.
Ans: The idea was to be in control of the Word of God so that it brings life to us. The church acts as the angel who wields the sword, and men have been doing this already - but not being honest about it. This has brought about less than satisfactory results.
Comment: From what you say, you're of a mind that you'll become a deity yourself one of these old days. And that crazy-quilt of a religion allegedly brings you "life." Did I miss anything?
Ans: Yeah, except that it won't be "of a mind" at all. You do not understand how real power dwells in the heart, in your motive of love. This is what gives you control. So I guess you have missed a lot then.
Comment: Oh, and while I'm thinking about it--this "becoming a deity" thing has always intrigued me. When you become a deity, how do you divide up territory with the other deities-in-training? Do you each get a few cubic parsecs of space to work with? A galaxy? Maybe an entire dimension all to yourself? Do you get to whip up your own civilizations right off the bat, or are you given existing civilizations to work with? Who doles all this stuff out to you while you're learning the ropes? Is there a senior supervising deity in charge of your training? Do you play "Rock Paper Scissors," loser gets the least desirable dimension to work with? And is there multiplayer?
Ans: Remember the story of the servant who made his minas into ten more? Read it. You'll figure it out. In the meantime, you are wasting time (asking pointless questions, that is).
Diane
V
Further explanation on the way that Eve was deceived in the Garden
Ans: For you want to believe that God and the Lord God are the same. They aren't.
Comment: Yea of course they are! "Lord" is just the way English translaters translate "Jahovah" so it's just saying Jahovah God. How do you get around all the verses like "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one God?"
Ans: "Lord" is a male title. The Lord was "One" in the same way that Adam was "one" in the beginning. He and his wife were all part of the one body, but only the male part was showing in the physical world. So that is how the "Lord" saw himself - as "one" just as he saw Adam. Adam was the image of the Lord. But in Genesis 1 we have a different story. Here, the word "God" is "Elohim" in Hebrew, and it takes it's meaning from the context. So it can mean male, female, or both. In this case, God made man in his own image - male and female. So God was male and female in this chapter. "God" is not exclusively a male title, as "Lord" is.
Comment: Did you see the post at the very bottom about Kathrine Bushnell? It's a matter of understanding the original language in which it is written. Here's a url to the chart Bushnell worked out showing the development of the word.
Ans: Yes, and I address the issue there as well. (My answer is that Katherine Bushnell has not been given direction by God to re-translate the Bible for me since she comes from a different era and different culture than myself - I simply trust God to have the right people do it for my benefit so that the right translation comes into my hands - I should not have to now chase down an obscure scholar that re-wrote her own version over a certury ago. Besides, the main point here is in the differences in our interpretation, not in precise wording)
Comment: It's not a matter of having permission, it's just a matter of trasnlation.
Ans: I know that the Holy Bible is God-breathed, but I have no way of knowing that your sources are. Since you do not even claim that Bushnell sought God on this issue, it makes my decision on the matter easy in my books.
Comment: So what are you saying? That there are two God's and they're in competition, and one is a woman. Very original. But not very realistic. The passage is not a pronouncement of a curse but a warning. The original language demonstates that.
Ans: It would be difficult to explain this to someone that hasn't got an open mind on the subject. But let's just say that Adam was Adam both before the split and after the split with his wife. Yet he had to become first two and then one again in order to become a father, didn't he? Well, you can't have a Father unless you have a Mother too. Make sense? That's pretty obvious to me. Oh, and they are getting married at the end of the Bible - so they are reunited anyways. We're just going through the process that Adam went through in order to become a father. It's happening to the Lord God the same way it happened to Adam.
Comment: Eating the fruit wasn't turn(ing) to her husband, but God knows the heart. If he saw that she was turning to trust her husband more than him than that's what he was talking about.
Ans: I will state again, that I don't think this variance in translation makes a difference anyways. You just want to interpret it differently than I for some reason. If we can't agree on it, I don't have a problem with that. Time will tell anyways.
Diane
VI
Further clarification
Question: 1st - What defines male and female, by your standards?
Ans: I'm not sure what you mean by this question - in the natural, there are obvious differences in physiological features. In the Spiritual, the differences in their natures are seen in the results of their works. The female produces life. The male produces knowledge from out of that life.
Question: 2nd - Who cares what gender God or Jesus is? Why are you bothering to bring this up?
Ans: It will be crucial for the next step of our Spiritual growth. Brain and heart have to first separate and define their roles clearly in order for the rest of the body to know what is needed from each. So far, the Body of Christ has been going to the 'head' for all its needs. This can only work for so long. For in the mind dwells many things, but there is no life there except in an "image". Now we have to achieve life that is real life. And that can only come from the heart of God - the source of Life.
Question: Oh, and something you put was kinda weird. Someone said 'you think He just needs a woman", your response was "all men do".
Ans: They may not know it or believe it, but they do. They are not complete without them. Women need men too.
Comment: God is NOT a man. God is God. Spirit. I think that is pretty prominent in all of the Bible...
Ans: This does not deny the fact that God is also Love. And Wisdom. And Knowledge. And Life. We have to divide the different attributes between the two parents through our realization and our acceptance of this. And this is Wisdom also, that we choose this for ourselves. God is Wisdom - or female - in nature. In this age the male surrounded the female - just like it has been in the God that we chose. In the next age the female will surround the male - just like it is in God in truth. Last time we chose through deception. This time we will choose through truth.
Comment: As well, if you are trying to limit God to a box (He's human and needs this and that, needs teaching etc..).. Um. Lets get this straight. A Guy/Gal who creates the most mind-bogglingly complex creation, with DNA strands made up of millions of tiny little things, needs to be educated on the LAWS OF HIS/HER OWN CREATION????....What??
Ans: Are you ready at all to take me seriously? God is creating her/himself at the same time as creating mankind. In fact, She is doing it through man, just as He first did it through woman. This is our job as children of God, to learn all these things.
Diane
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