This thread started out on a Catholic board, addressing my concerns that Catholics are praying to Mary and the other saints, and that this is idolatry.

I am asking that the Catholics give me some sort of defence for their position - in fact, any defence at all for praying to the saints. And since I have brought up the lack of scripture support, the poster assumes I am taking the stand of 'sola scriptura'. He takes several quotes of mine from other threads, out of context, and posts them here.

Simple editing has been done for clarification and spelling mistakes - real names have been substituted for 'user' names, again for clarification.

My comments are in yellow.

The heading is entitled,

"Are we really meant to follow scripture alone?

It seems the point you are trying to hammer home here is unrelated to praying to saints and more related to the doctrine of sola scriptura, as evidenced by these references:

Quote: "The point that the disciples did not pray to any of the saints that had left their physical bodies (dead in this sense only) - and neither were they given instructions to do so anywhere in scriptures that I can see - has not been addressed. We are to pray to the Father, through Jesus Christ, and in Jesus' name."

Quote: "Tell me where we are instructed in scriptures to pray either to the saints, or to ask the saints (Mary, or any others) to pray to God for us, and I will shut my mouth."

Quote: "But none of these are instructing us to pray to those that have already left their bodies. I think I rest my case."

Any statements such as, "Tell me where we are instructed in the scriptures to________" (then simply fill in the blank) or the endless variations of the way this idea is stated demonstrates a misunderstanding of Sacred Scripture. The Bible is not a Catechism, Diane. Nor was it ever intended to be.

By using arguments such as this, one paints one's self into the proverbial scriptural corner. In other words, it then becomes incumbent upon the person that makes such a claim to "Tell me where in scripture where scripture tells us to only go by what is explicitly stated in scripture." Until a person can do that, it is pointless to so flippantly and smugly make the above claims.

The Bible nowhere teaches "Bible Only", and in fact refutes that doctrine, not implicitly but quite explicitly. So before you rest your case, please demonstrate sola scriptura first, using only the Bible, before resorting to that doctrine as some sort of trump card. Jesus didn't teach it. Neither did His Apostles. In fact they taught against such a doctrine.

Quote: "Besides, the disciples never prayed to any other saints. I believe we are to follow their example."

I realize this is getting off-topic, but do you really? Do you really believe in following their example? In everything? Then where are they setting the example for sola scriptura? Now this is really off-topic, but what about diviorce and "remarriage"? Very few Protestant sects disallow divorce and remarriage, yet Jesus and the Bible explicitly condemn this practice. Yet it is rampant in today's Protestant church world.

What about abortion? Where does the Bible explicitly address that? Or what about stem cell research creating human embryos only to destroy them? Where does the Bible explicitly address that? We could go on and on like this, Diane, never getting anywhere.

Again, the Bible isn't a catechism book. It never was intended to be and it never will be. Anytime a Christian attempts to rely on the Bible alone, or more accurately their own private interpretation of it, in the absence of the constant teaching Tradition of the Christian Church (read "the Catholic Church), there is the very real danger of misinterpretation.

As is the case with any Christian who denies the Communion of Saints, including our interconnectedness with all Christians living and dead, and intercessorary prayer both among and between living and departed Christians. I would like to convers with you more in depth on this but I must get off to work.

David S.

All of us are at different places in regards to our spiritual development on one hand, and our knowledge of the faith on the other.

A generation was lost in the formation of the faith, and things that most Catholics should know are now items that have to be studied and researched.

Scott Hahn has written extensively on the Book of Revelations and its images in reference to the Communion of Saints, and praying to/with the saints. But this is not the issue.

I think any person that goes by sola scriptura for any length of time HAS to ask questions about canon of scripture and authority. I cant quote the source, but Luther for a time removed James and Revelations from his canon due to their refuting some of his positions. Sola scriptura is a philosophical impossibility due to the fact that there NEEDS to be an authority to discern what goes into the Bible. Some have wanted to remove books for various reasons. What prevents me from adding parts of Polycarp, Ireneas, Augustine or others to scripture? The only way my version could be refuted is by claiming an extra scriptural authoritative tradition.

K. Lantsberger

At this point, two threads have expanded to four in only a couple of days - each with several posters, and many more questions - I am not keeping up.

To Effie, and Michelle

- who resent it that I haven't read all the posts already addressing this subject - I normally would agree with you, that a person should at least read what has been put out there first. That's why I asked your forgiveness.

Let me explain. Something happens to me (and I'm sure others) when reading so much repetitive information. After awhile it doesn't sink in anymore. The mind gets boggled down, the names get mixed up, and you cannot separate the answers any longer, one from another.

Add to this the time constraints that I'm sure we all must live under, and it becomes easier to just ask the specific question you are concerned with. In truth, it's that I feel spiritually that God does not want me to spend that much time in front of the computer to get an answer when there is a simpler and more direct way to accomplish the goal - simply by asking it again.

In answer to your other question - 'on whose authority' am I interpreting scripture? We were all given authority to go directly to God for the answers, to meditate on scripture, and to feel satisfied within our own Spirits that we have the answer that resonates truth for us. This is the function of the Holy Spirit - to guide us in this regard.

That said, I will concede that many of you may feel justified in asking the saints for prayers on your behalf. However, we have "one mediator" to represent us to God, someone who ransomed himself for the sake of all men - and this is the reason he was put in this position. The other saints (dead in physical body) do not qualify for the job.

To me, it is tatamount to usurping Jesus' and the HolySpirit's roles.

Diane

I do not adhere to the 'sola scriptura' philosophy. I also believe in receiving answers from the Holy Spirit directly. But many others do not trust this approach, and so I am trying to stay within a more generally accepted format for this question. If there were direction in the scriptures to either pray to the saints, or to ask them for prayers, this would go a long way towards changing my mind. I would still feel that I need the Spirit's input however, in order to interpret that scripture properly. My main source is the Holy Spirit.

Diane

Diane,

Quote: "In answer to your other question - 'on whose authority' am I interpreting scripture? We were all given authority to go directly to God for the answers, to meditate on scripture, and to feel satisfied within our own Spirits that we have the answer that resonates truth for us"

Where do you get that authority?

Bob C

Bob C,

We are all given authority by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Diane

Diane,

Quote: "To Effie, and Michelle - who resent it that I haven't read all the posts already addressing this subject - I normally would agree with you, that a person should at least read what has been put out there first. That's why I asked your forgiveness."

I said no such thing, or gave you no such admonishment for not doing so.

Quote: "Bob C, We are all given authority by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Where in the bible does it say that?

Quote: "If there were directions in the scriptures to either pray to the saints, or to ask them for prayers, this would go a long way towards changing my mind. I would still feel that I need the Spirit's input however, in order to interpret that scripture properly. My main source is the Holy Spirit."

Have you not read any of the post that have been given you...we have given you biblical proof, you are just choosing to ignore it. And again you are saying that scripture is what ever you want it to be.

Michelle

Diane,

Quote: "We are all given authority by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

How do you know that, by what authority do you come to that conclusion?

Bob C

Diane,

Perhaps you honestly do not see the error in the assertions you make and the many inconsistencies in the theology underlying those assertions. Let's look at them. On the one hand you say:

Quote: "I do not adhere to the 'sola scriptura' philosophy. I also believe in receiving answers from the Holy Spirit directly. But many others do not trust this approach, and so I am trying to stay within a more generally accepted format for this question."

Yet immediately following this assertion you say:

Quote: "If there were direction in the scriptures to either pray to the saints, or to ask them for prayers, this would go a long way towards changing my mind. I would still feel that I need the Spirit's input however, in order to interpret that scripture properly. My main source is the Holy Spirit."

So on the one hand no sola scriptura for you because you believe you are receiving "answers from the Holy Spirit directly". We have all seen this sort of reasoning before, Diane. It little more than a euphemism for saying, "I believe I am right and you are wrong because I really "feel" myself to be right. And I must be right and you must be wrong because I really "feel" that it is the Holy Spirit that is providing me with my conclusions and not my own self. And if you disagree with me you are not really disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with God, because God leads me directly through the Holy Spirit. And God must not be leading you if you disagree with me. So there!" Tell us, Diane, are you correct and everyone else wrong that disagrees with you? Are you correct in your own "Spirit-led" private, personal interpretations of the Bible, and everyone else wrong who interprets otherwise than the way you do, because you get your answers "directly from the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit only lead those whom agree with your theology and personal interpretations of Scripture? Am I only Spirit-led to the extent that I agree with your theology and biblical interpretations?

On the one hand you are not dependent upon sola scriptura yet in the very next breath you are dependent upon explicit direction from Scripture (while guided directly by the Holy Spirit, of course, in its interpretation) because you need explicit, "direction in the scriptures to either pray to the saints, or to ask them for prayers", because, "this would go a long way towards changing my mind." Of course, you "would still feel that I need the Spirit's input however, in order to interpret that scripture properly." Because, once again, in contrast to those who disagree with you, your "main source is the Holy Spirit" and not your own self.

Diane, anyone can say anything. I can just as easily say that I am personally led by the Holy Spirit in my own biblical interpretations, and therefore I must be right and you must be wrong. I can just as easily demand that you provide a Scripture passage that explicitly instructs that asking the saints in heaven for their prayers is prohibited. You will not be able to provide such a passage. And 1 Timothy 2: 5 certainly doesn't fit the bill. Because if it did, then Paul is violating this himself a few verses earlier when he asks that prayers and supplications be offered for everyone. It is through the one mediatorship of Christ that we (all Christians) are connected. We do not "infringe upon" that one mediatorship of Christ when we pray for one another. Neither is it an infringement upon Christ's one mediatorship when we ask other members of the Body of Christ (on earth or in heaven) to pray for us. We are merely being partakers of and participants in Christ's one mediatorhip, just as He intends us to be. Tell me, Diane, if someone asked you for your prayers, would you say something like "How dare you ask me to infringe upon the one mediatorship of Christ! Pray for yourself!" Boy, I sure hope not.

So it would seem that the major obstacle, for you, is that it's okay for Christians on earth to ask other Christians on earth to pray for them, it's just somehow, "tatamount to usurp Jesus' and the HolySpirit's roles" if we ask departed Christians, who are in God's presence in heaven , to pray for us. Hmm. That makes no sense at all. And what's more, it is absolutely contrary to the biblical message. To deny that we can request the prayers of the saints is truly diminishing the work of Christ on the cross. I mean, just think about it. Christ tells us that he conquered death, that death no longer holds power over us. Yet you imply that death somehow conquers us, that physical death separtes us, spiritually, from one another, from Christ's Body. Scripture tells us that there is only one body of Christ, whose parts cannot be separated. Yet the brand of theology you are promoting implis to us that physical death does not only spiritually separate and dismantle the one Body of Christ, but even renders the departed Christian useless to the parts of the body of Christ still living their earthly lives. Amazing. That theology is totally contrary to the scriptural message. It is totally contrary to the constant 2,000 year teaching of Christ's Church. And it is absolutely diminishing the finished work of Jesus on the cross, because it grants physical death a power death no longer has (according to Jesus, Who tells us to fear not because He conquered death). That sort of misguided theology pretends to give physical death the power to fracture and separate the one Body of Christ. Nonsense.

Quote: "We were all given authority to go directly to God for the answers, to meditate on scripture, and to feel satisfied within our own Spirits that we have the answer that resonates truth for us. This is the function of the Holy Spirit - to guide us in this regard."

Where do you get this idea? Are you saying that we are all, individually, granted authority by God to discern proper scriptural interpretation? Just look around you, Diane, to see that this isn't so, as evidenced by the myriad different contradictory "personal interpretations" of Scripture abounding withing Christianity--where if one interpretation is correct, the other can't be. Yet each person "feels satisfied within their own spirit that they have the answer that resonates truth". Sorry, but that just doesn't hold water.

Besides, that sort of theology flies directly in the face of 2 Peter 1:20 which explicitly tells us, in not ambiguous terms, that Scripture is not a matter of personal interpretation. And 2 Peter 3: 16-17 which warns us, once again explicitly , that the ignorant (the untaught) will always distort Scripture, to their own distruction. Ignorant in what way? Untaught in what way? That they have low IQ's? No. Those who are not properly educated in the Sacred Traditions of the Christian Church. Those who amputate the Bible from the bosom of the Catholic Church, through which it came, and the authentic teachings of Christ and the Apostles through Christ's Church. Sacred Tradition is a lense throgh which Scripture is properly focused. The teachings of Christ's duly appointed Apostles and their legitimate successors are the proper context within which Scripture is interpreted. To go outside of that and become an individualistic scriptural "Lone Ranger" and attempt to properly interpret Scripture based upon "feelings" of being personally led by the "Holy Spirit" is a sure recipe for doctrinal error--as demonstrated by all the different conflicting doctrines that exist within Protestantism.

Quote: "We are all given authority by God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

How so? Where does it say that, either in the Bible or anywhere in historical Christian teaching (prior to the Reformation)? Are we all given this authority to hold our personal "interpretations" of Scripture above that of the Church established on earth by Christ the Lord? Are we given this personal authority so that when our personal beliefs differ with Christ's Church our own personal authority prevails over the lawful authority of Christ's Church, established by Jesus Himself? Like I said earlier, Diane, anyone can say anything. Can you in some way prove that we are all granted this authority?

Quote: "My main source is the Holy Spirit."

I'm sure you actually believe that. But how does that square with other Christians who also believe their "main source" to be the Holy Spirit yet come to different doctrinal beliefs than you do? What makes them wrong and you right? How do you know? A "feeling"? Do you somehow have the market cornered on access the the Holy Spirit for discernment of correct Christian doctrine and truth? Not likely. The truth of the matter is that no individual, ordinary Christians were ever promised or in any way guaranteed discernment of proper scriptural interpretation or authentic Christian truth. That promise was given by Jesus Christ not to individual Christians, but corporately to His Church. He promised and guaranteed that to His Church--not to you and not to me. And not to the millions of Christians who are their own little "chruches of one", going around believing themselves personally led by the Holy Spirit as their "main source" of Christian truth. All the while coming up with competing and contradictory doctrines...

David S.

David S,

Quote: "So it would seem that the major obstacle, for you, is that it's okay for Christians on earth to ask other Christians on earth to pray for them, it's just somehow, "tatamount to usurp Jesus' and the HolySpirit's roles" if we ask departed Christians, who are in God's presence in heaven , to pray for us. Hmm. That makes no sense at all. And what's more, it is absolutely contrary to the biblical message. To deny that we can request the prayers of the saints is truly diminishing the work of Christ on the cross. I mean, just think about it. Christ tells us that he conquered death, that death no longer holds power over us. Yet you imply that death somehow conquers us, that physical death separtes us, spiritually, from one another, from Christ's Body. Scripture tells us that there is only one body of Christ, whose parts cannot be separated."

When we ask others to pray for us, here on this earth, we are in effect raising their status in our own eyes. In many cases, people feel they don't know how to pray, and haven't learned to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. It's like less mature Christians giving credit to more mature ones in asking for their help - like a child asking a parent for help. I have told people in past not to ask me to pray for them unless they want the answer - many of them do not want the answer in truth, and get resentful if they don't get the answer they want.

I'm not there to baby-coddle them. They often want out of their dilemma, without having to lift a finger to help themselves. In the same way, you don't want to have to face Jesus, so you go to the saints instead. But in order to receive your healing, you must face Jesus - just like the woman with the issue of blood, or the ancient Isrealites that had to look at the serpent on the stake, to receive their healing.

But there is one God and one mediator, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all men. If you read this passage over again, and meditate on in, you will see that Jesus was the one mediator passed on from this physical body, because he gave himself as a ransom for all men. Does any other saint qualify? No. Mary certainly doesn't, and has no special status in God - that we should pray to her. By praying to her, you are making her a second mediator.

In referrence to death being conquered, yes, Jesus did do his completed work upon the cross. But the death (or sleep) that was man's original punishment is still being seen in this earth. Many of the passages that state it has been overcome are prophesies for this past world - men haven't received the results yet. God speaks 'those things that are not, as though they were'. This is how prophesy works. It is both accurate to say that is has happened, as well as it hasn't yet happened - depending on which side of the mirror you stand on.

Diane

David S.

Quote: "I'm sure you actually believe that. But how does that square with other Christians who also believe their "main source" to be the Holy Spirit yet come to different doctrinal beliefs than you do? What makes them wrong and you right? How do you know? A "feeling"?"

To be honest David, I haven't met anyone else that says their main source for knowledge is the Holy Spirit. So I haven't got the problems with it that you have. Different doctrinal beliefs that I see around me invariably come from the many different men that people have put at their heads - even men that are asleep (dead). Perhaps if we all went directly to the source, it would make a difference in bringing us all together.

Diane

David S.

As you can see, I am trying to separate your different questions for my own sake. Each of these issues could take awhile to discuss.

Quote: "How so? Where does it say that, either in the Bible or anywhere in historical Christian teaching (prior to the Reformation)? Are we all given this authority to hold our personal "interpretations" of Scripture above that of the Church established on earth by Christ the Lord? Are we given this personal authority so that when our personal beliefs differ with Christ's Church our own personal authority prevails over the lawful authority of Christ's Church, established by Jesus Himself? Like I said earlier, Diane, anyone can say anything. Can you in some way prove that we are all granted this authority?"

The church is anyone that wants to follow the Spirit's voice, David. It is not a group of people who want their human leadership to be the highest authority on earth. I don't care if my personal beliefs differ with your church - it remains to be seen if yours is Christ's church.

But you're right - anyone can say anything they want. Can I prove that we are all granted this authority? Not from this position. God will give signs and wonders, healing and miracles within a closer circle of believers - those who meet in person for instance. But he will certainly vindicate me, as he often has in past. "This is the 'heritage of the servants of the Lord, and this is their vindication from me,' declares the Lord." (Isa 54:17)

Diane

It would in fact be breaking a Spiritual law to heal people that have no faith. Jesus did not heal many people in his home village due to their lack of faith. (Matt 13:58)

While I can admire your faith in your assertions, I find your logic faulty. Each person has the ability to take from Scripture their own personal meaning...the message from last Sunday's gospel may have a different meaning in each of our lives. But the Doctrine, or body of beliefs that we all share, is handed down through Tradition, comes from Jesus Christ, and is not subject to interpretation. This is the Church that Our Lord built.

Quote: "When we ask others to pray for us, here on this earth, we are in effect raising their status in our own eyes. In many cases, people feel they don't know how to pray, and haven't learned to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. It's like less mature Christians giving credit to more mature ones in asking for their help - like a child asking a parent for help."

How do you know what's in my mind and in my heart when I pray? Aren't we all God's children, and shouldn't we be able to ask for help? Its not about doing it the "right way"--even if we're asking the wrong question, God knows what's in our hearts and will give us what we need. And I will ask my friends to pray for me, and will pray for their needs as well. (I'm almost positive we are directed to do this, but I'm not familiar enough with Scripture to cite the reference).

Quote: "In the same way, you don't want to have to face Jesus, so you go to the saints instead. But in order to receive your healing, you must face Jesus"

Not true...its called the Sacrement of Reconciliation. When I finally have the joy and honor of being received into His Church, I will go directly to The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to ask forgiveness of my sin. (Yes, I also do this every day).

Let me ask you this...when you have an illness, would you rather see a general practioner, or a specialist. The general practitioner looks out for your overall well-being and coordinates your care, but the specialist has experience in your area and can recommend extra help. Although you may be able to find fault with this argument, IMO, a saint is like a specialist. I need all the extra help I can get.

In conclusion, I will pray for you, Diane, that the Holy Spirit does lead you back to His Church. One doesn't believe because he has proof, one believes because he has faith. May God grant you this.

Jeanine

Just as an aside: I may go to specialists, but not for the reasons this person thinks - not for healing, for instance. Unfortunately, I never got the chance to address this point.

Sacrement of Reconciliation is a new one to me. It seems it is a man-made term.

One believes because of faith first, but also because that faith is proven afterward - further building your faith. You can always judge the tree by it's fruit to see if you are staying on track with God's will.

Diane,

Quote: "The church is anyone that wants to follow the Spirit's voice"

No matter if the spirit leads different people to believe in different things, right? It’s only following that counts, not where you end up at.

Quote: "David. It is not a group of people who want their human leadership to be the highest authority on earth."

Isn’t that what Luther wanted? To be the highest authority on earth? Isn’t that what every spin off from him also wants? To be their own highest authority on earth?

Quote: "I don't care if my personal beliefs differ with your church - it remains to be seen if yours is Christ's church."

Are you challenging a historical fact, that the RCC can be, and has been traced back, historically to Jesus and the apostles themselves?

If this is not the Church that Christ established then which one is, out of the 30,000+ we have to choice from, all claiming to be lead by the one spirit, telling them all different things, leading them all in different directions.

In another thread you said the the Church as moved away from God, This implys that you believe that it once belonged to God.

Are you now saying that the RCC is not Christ’s Church, and that it never belonged to God, if it never belonged to God then how can it move away from God? or are you saying that the RCC is Christ’s Church and that we have moved away from God, which is it?

Quote: "But you're right - anyone can say anything they want. Can I prove that we are all granted this authority? Not from this position. God will give signs and wonders, healing and miracles within a closer circle of believers - those who meet in person for instance. But he will certainly vindicate me, as he often has in past. "This is the 'heritage of the servants of the Lord, and this is their vindication from me,' declares the Lord." (Isa 54:17)"

So you are saying in this arena God can not vindicate you, but he can vindicate you in person because in person among a close circle of those who believe you, you can perform signs as a testament of your vindication?

Quote: "To be honest David, I haven't met anyone else that says their main source for knowledge is the Holy Spirit. So I haven't got the problems with it that you have. Different doctrinal beliefs that I see around me invariably come from the many different men that people have put at their heads - even men that are asleep (dead).Perhaps if we all went directly to the source, it would make a difference in bringing us all together."

If you truly feel that way then why are you putting yourself in the hands of Luther, by accepting his cannon of the scriptures?

Quote: "When we ask others to pray for us, here on this earth, we are in effect raising their status in our own eyes."

How so, how are we doing that by asking someone who has gone before us who lives with chirst in heaven to pray for us before the throne of God?

Quote: "In many cases, people feel they don't know how to pray, and haven't learned to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. It's like less mature Christians giving credit to more mature ones in asking for their help – like a child asking a parent for help. I have told people in past not to ask me to pray for them unless they want the answer - many of them do not want the answer in truth, and get resentful if they don't get the answer they want. I'm not there to baby-coddle them. They often want out of their dilemma, without having to lift a finger to help themselves. In the same way, you don't want to have to face Jesus, so you go to the saints instead. But in order to receive your healing, you must face Jesus - just like the woman with the issue of blood, or the ancient Isrealites that had to look at the serpent on the stake, to receive their healing."

First I have to tell you that we, Roman Catholic go to Jesus for healing, we do not go to the saints for healing, we ask for their intercession, but the healing can only come from God, and we do go to him directly more than any other Christian walking the face of the earth, we go directly to him in holy communion, where we receive him, body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Second, I must say, I have not heard before any one else take an approach to intercessory prayer in the way you have described. What do you have against praying for someone? You think that it is immaturity on our part for wanting others to pray for us? Do you think you have the right to dictate to someone on how they will accept an answer from God? Are you begrudging God grace from another by refusing to aid them with your prayers?

You seem to be saying that you will not pray for someone unless they ask God for what you think they should have and not simply for God’s will to be done. We always pray for God will to be done, whether it be a pray of petition or a prayer to preserver in faith. How are you baby-coddling them by asking that God’s will be done for them? And if they are so misguided and mislead, then don’t you think that these are the ones that need your prayers? Do you think that prayer is only for the righteous and holy people and they are the ones only who are deserving of prayer? Are you aware that praying for others in a work of mercy?

Quote: "But there is one God and one mediator, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all men."

Yeah, so your point is?

Quote: "If you read this passage over again, and meditate on in, you will see that Jesus was the one mediator passed on from this physical body, because he gave himself as a ransom for all men. Does any other saint qualify? No. Mary certainly doesn't, and has no special status in God - that we should pray to her. By praying to her, you are making her a second mediator."

Did we say that they did? I ask you again where in any of our post did we say that they did? Why do you want to make this out to be something that it is not?

In no way do we think that if we are praying to Mary or the saints, we are seeking mediation between us and God for the forgivness of our sins. I do not ask Mary to obtain forgiveness for my sins, I ask Jesus to forgive me my sins, I ask Mary for virtue, to not fall into sin again. Get the difference?

Diane, Look, I mean no disrepect personally to you, but you are talking in circles, so it seems.

First you say it is because we have no biblical proof that you do not believe that we should pray to the saints or asked for their prayers.

We provided you with biblical quotes and evidence, in which you ignore.

Then you suggest that we substitute our savior with Mary and the saints by citing a scripture that is irrelevant to the issue.

As I have asked you before, where have any of us here suggested such a thing, have we not said that only the opposite is true? But you continue to ignore that.

Now it seems you are saying that only weak people ask for intercession, and if someone ask for prayers then they are weak for doing so? You accuse us of not knowing how to pray, yet our Mass, our worship is but a prayer, the greatest prayer we could ever offer up because it is Christ himself we offer. You make it eveident that you are very ignorant to what Catholicism is all about. You chose to hold on to myths and things that simple are not true.

Then you went on to say how holy and godly a man Luther was for removing books from the bible

In which when you were presented evidence that he was not either godly or holy you changed your story.

Now you are telling us that we are putting our faith in the hands of dead men when it is indeed you who are putting your trust in Luther’s guidance from the “holy spirit” and I do believe, last time I checked, Luther is a dead man.

I am really having trouble seeing where you are going with all of this, but I am going to pray for you Diane, that you will be lead by the spirit of all truth.

Michelle

Here's another one which I didn't get the chance to address. But her first statements here leave me shaking my head. It doesn't matter where you end up??? To me it matters eternally where 'you end up.' It's all about 'ending up' with eternal life with all the rest of the Body of Christ isn't it?

On the smaller scale, one can look at the results of one's work regularly to know if you (or anybody else for that matter) are following the right path. Spiritual gifts of all sorts, prophesying, healing abilities, peace, love, and many more, are the fruits produced that show you that you are growing in the right direction.

What she claims as historical fact for the RCC, can actually be claimed for all churches, for the present day church is only a spin-off from past churches. Just because they continue to use the same name doesn't mean they haven't changed their purpose over time. In the same way geneology and/or circumcision couldn't 'save' the Jews, for they became arrogant about their own authority. So clinging to 'pope-lineage' is not basis for authority. 'Pope' is a man-made title, not a title given by Jesus Christ to Peter.

I do not 'perform' miracles for anybody - this would be testing God. I'm saying that vindication comes through things like healing and miracles, when I am doing the Lord's work. This is his vindication for all his servants. The writing here is not the type that requires them. Jesus also said many things to his disciples which were to be 'proven' at a later date, in due time.

Though she states she does not ask Mary for forgiveness, (nor does anybody on this board), it is clear that they ask for patience, guidance, virtue (these at least that I have seen here). And these are all forms of healing, or 'saving'. Healing equates to forgiveness, according to Jesus' teachings.

Neither am I 'putting myself into the hands of Luther' when it comes to his cannon of scripture. I merely defended his disallowance of the apocrapha as probably being not that of the Holy Spirit's.

I do not refuse to pray for others when they ask me - but I do try to prepare them for an answer which they will not necessarily like. In many cases God wants them to improve themselves in some way, but when I tell them that a change in their behaviour is needed, they will sometimes get offended. I do not simply 'pray' for people, I get the answers for them, for that is God's calling on my life.

Diane,

Am I reading this rightly:

Quote: "I don't care if my personal beliefs differ with your church - it remains to be seen if yours is Christ's church."

So, you come to a Catholic forum seeking answers to questions and then insult the hosts? Over 1.5 BILLION souls living on Earth and countless in Heaven believe this to be true.

By the by, "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe."(Christ to Thomas after the Resurrection) I believe this is the church Christ founded WITHOUT having met the man. Many of us here believe the same.

Andy K.

I actually came to this board to ask one question about how the Catholics view the apocrapha. While visiting I also decided to test them on their beliefs about praying to the saints and to Mary - to see if they really feel secure in thm. I believe most of them to be sincere in not seeing it as idolotry, though misled.

Quote: "To be honest David, I haven't met anyone else that says their main source for knowledge is the Holy Spirit. So I haven't got the problems with it that you have."

Ah ha! Now we understand your authority, Diane. Apparently, you must believe you're the only true Christian in the world...or at least, the only one you've met. The Holy Spirit is your main source of knowledge and the rest of us...???

As David alluded to earlier, it is very difficult to discuss theology with someone who truly believes they are incontrovertibly right and therefore, everyone who disagrees with them has to be wrong.

In Christ, Jim B

I am reminded of the Air Force's effort to teach me to march. The sergeant never did understand that I had a better sense of time than any one else; they were out of step not me.

- Joe Kelley

Diane,

I find your position very interesting...partly because I came very close to embracing such a position about 2 years ago. I have several very close friends (who I admire deeply for the faith and Christian zeal) who take a similar position, viz., that the Spirit is the main or even the only true guide in their lives, separate and apart from the Bible or the Church.

Needless to say, after nearing that position myself, I steered away from it when I concluded it was a spiritually dangerous position that was even more so in that, on the surface, it appeared to be very "spiritual" and "free" and exciting.

You stated:

Quote: "The church is anyone that wants to follow the Spirit's voice, David. It is not a group of people who want their human leadership to be the highest authority on earth. I don't care if my personal beliefs differ with your church - it remains to be seen if yours is Christ's church."

Diane, I understand your perception that the RC leadership wants to the "highest authority on earth." My background is Protestant, and I felt that way about the Catholic Church and her hierarchy for a long time.

However, the "logistical problem" with your position, it seems to me, is that you have not managed to defeat the "highest authority on earth" problem....you have merely transferred it to yourself. What that does, especially if everyone else were to take your lead, would be to create an innumerable host of "popes"....millions of "Spirit led people" who were each their own highest authority....notwithstanding the fact that they vowed sincerely to be humbly following the Spirit in their endeavors.

Diane, the Catholic Church, led by her bishops, also claims to be led by the Spirit, just as do you. Since mere claims don't amount to much, as you have also affirmed, then who among several who all claim to be Spirit-led can be discerned to be true? If the Spirit leads me to submit to John Paul II as the successor of St. Peter (the early Christians definitely submitted their opinions to him), then how can you show me that your own version of the "Spirit-life" is better? More true?

Just something to think about.

Take care.

Kevin B.

This one suggested that we take our conversation off the boards to private email - which I accepted. With my first post however, he quickly stated that he wouldn't have time to write me for a few weeks. When I saw him posting on the boards only a couple of days later, I took this above post and responded to it via personal email - saying I could see that he was posting again, and felt this was important to address.

You seem to be adamant that you do not pray to Mary. Part of your post says,

Quote: "Did we say that they did? I ask you again where in any of our post did we say that they did? Why do you want to make this out to be something that it is not? In no way do we think that if we are praying to Mary or the saints, we are seeking mediation between us and God for the forgivness of our sin."

Yet below is an example of people praying to Mary, as opposed to praying to God, so that Mary will pray or intercede on their behalf. I found this under the heading 'Devotions to Mary' on this board.

Quote: "I know that many people here pray to Mary or have a devotion to Her. Mary has so many beautiful titles; I think they help us relate to her. So I was curious if people here pray to Mary using a particular title (i.e. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc.) and what drew them to that particular title.

Personally, I feel a devotion to Mary as Our Lady of Czestochowa because I had a series of unexpected encounters with Her image and I believe that She was a strong influence in bringing me back to the Church. (There are details about this in the "making up for lost time" thread in the "Reverts" section, if anyone is interested.) Additionally, I sometimes will address Mary in my prayers as Theotokos, simply because I like the sound of it.

I'm interested to hear how other people pray to Mary."

Notice that the writer acknowledges that people on this board pray to Mary, including herself. They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator".

So you can see that I am not the one talking in circles. There are many conflicting views at COL

Diane

Diane wrote:

"Michelle,

Notice that the writer acknowledges that people on this board pray to Mary, including herself. They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator".

So you can see that I am not the one talking in circles. There are many conflicting views at COL"

Diane, of course people aren't asking Jesus to be the 'one mediator' thats like asking God to be "God".. we acknowledge Jesus as the unique mediator He is, in that he is the God-Man. Saints, such as Mary have the ability to offer prayers for us to God, and it is very biblical.

I strongly suggest you read romans with this thought in your mind, and as you take romans as a whole, and see Pauls thesis on the body of Christ, I hope then you can understand better the Christian understanding of intersession, and prayer, for those seen and unseen.

"Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21))

"[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4)

"the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8)

I strongly suggest you read these articles: http://www.catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp http://www.catholic.com/library/intercession_of_the_saints.asp

even if you do not read them, I hope you at least understand that when praying to a Saint, it is a request that the Saint offer their prayers to God for us, and the person will also pray to God. It never hurts to have a Saint intercede for you - open your heart, not your mind.

Jason

Neither Jason nor Michelle address the fact that others do indeed state that they pray to Mary - Jason interprets their words differently, even though they state it directly.

The disciples never prayed to the patriarchs (Old Testement saints), nor did Jesus do this - as neither did they teach others to. As far as I'm aware, the only person that called up a 'passed on' person to ask for help, was Saul in the Old Testement, who asked for Samuel. Saul was chastized severely by Samuel, and given warning that he would die along with his son.

You are losing more and more respect from me each time I read your thoughts. I pray Our Lady of Perpetual Help will give me the patiencce to deal with you more kindly. Speaking of praying to Mary, had you read the third post on the first page of the "Praying to Mary" thread found in this section, you would havve found Paolo's well-thought and cogent response to this question. Since you admitted in that thread you did not read the full, I doubt you will read it fully. For your convenience, I have Paolo's thoughts here.

Quote: The root of the problem stems from this idea:

prayer = worship

Praying is just talking to someone, asking for something. "I praythee, kind sir..."

Worship is a question of what is in the center of your life, the center of what you do and how you talk. What is the center of your universe, your true love?

Jesus Christ is the center of my life. And I have to be constantly aware that other things don't get in the way. That I don't accidentally start idol worshipping my work over my spiritual life, spending time "having fun" with my girlfriend rather than with her in prayer... It's easy to slip and make something else the center of your life.

But prayer isn't worship. It's communications.

When Catholics pray to Mary, and to the other Saints, we are talking to them, asking them to pray on our behalf, especially because they died in friendship to our Lord, and live in his eternal light. They can speak on our behalf as well as, if not better, than the brothers and sisters here on earth that we ask to pray for us."

Next time, read the thread through fully. You may find your answers.

After I celebrate Reconcilation, I sin. Mother of Mercy, may your Son show me The Way and may he grant me the courage to follow The Way.

Trying to do whatever He tells me,

Andy K.

Diane wrote:

"Michelle, You seem to be adamant that you do not pray to Mary. Part of your post says,

Quote: "Did we say that they did? I ask you again where in any of our post did we say that they did? Why do you want to make this out to be something that it is not? In no way do we think that if we are praying to Mary or the saints, we are seeking mediation between us and God for the forgivness of our sin."

Yet below is an example of people praying to Mary, as opposed to praying to God, so that Mary will pray or intercede on their behalf. I found this under the heading 'Devotions to Mary' on this board.

Quote: "I know that many people here pray to Mary or have a devotion to Her. Mary has so many beautiful titles; I think they help us relate to her. So I was curious if people here pray to Mary using a particular title (i.e. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc.) and what drew them to that particular title.

Personally, I feel a devotion to Mary as Our Lady of Czestochowa because I had a series of unexpected encounters with Her image and I believe that She was a strong influence in bringing me back to the Church. (There are details about this in the "making up for lost time" thread in the "Reverts" section, if anyone is interested.) Additionally, I sometimes will address Mary in my prayers as Theotokos, simply because I like the sound of it.

I'm interested to hear how other people pray to Mary."

Notice that the writer acknowledges that people on this board pray to Mary, including herself. They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator".

So you can see that I am not the one talking in circles. There are many conflicting views at COL"

Diane, What conflicting views are you talking about? We are not in conflict with anything, and that quote that you copied suggest nothing of the sort, we are discussing Catholic Church teaching through out this forum. We are Catholic, what else are we supposed to talk about on a Catholic forum?

Quote: "You seem to be adamant that you do not pray to Mary. Part of your post says"

Excuse me, but I never said that we do not pray to Mary or ask her to pray for us. Of course I pray to Mary and so does countless other Catholics, this is not in dispute.

What I said was is that we do not worship Mary or the saints, we do not go to them for forgiveness for our sins. You have implied on more than one occasion, that we do go to Mary as a mediator for our forgiveness and I am asking you again, where have any of us said that?

Re-read your own post,

Quote: "If you read this passage over again, and meditate on in, you will see that Jesus was the one mediator passed on from this physical body, because he gave himself as a ransom for all men. Does any other saint qualify? No. Mary certainly doesn't, and has no special status in God - that we should pray to her. By praying to her, you are making her a second mediator."

I am adamant yes, we do not hold Mary as a second mediator between us and the father as a ransom for our sins, I ask you again, where have I or any one else said that we did???

Quote: "They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator"."

Where in the authors quote is she at all offering worship to Mary and asking her for forgiveness?

Michelle

Parts of the post above are actually quotes from Michelles former post.

Another section on this board is entitled 'Devotions to Mary'. But according to my dictionary, 'devotions' is a form of worship. Clearly, they both pray to Mary and have devotions dedicated to her - giving her credit for healing and also interceding for them. Healing and forgiveness are used synomously by Jesus. They don't seem to put two an two together.

Michelle never does address the fact that worshipping Mary and asking for healing of all sorts is prevelant throughout the forum.

Michelle,

I don't know. Perhaps this thought about Mary as Co-Redemptrix may also help Diane (ALL, I apologize for this possible can of worms)

Quote: 'Miravalle: The Marian title "Co-redemptrix" refers to the unique participation of Mary in the work of our redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ. The prefix "co" comes from the Latin word "cum," which means "with" and "not equal to."

The term as used by the Church never places Mary on a level of equality with Jesus Christ, the divine redeemer. Yet the free and active human cooperation by the Mother of Jesus in redemption, particularly at the annunciation and at Calvary, is rightfully acknowledged by the papal magisterium and the teachings of the Second Vatican Council -- see "Lumen Gentium," Nos. 56, 57, 58 and 61 -- and becomes the pre-eminent example of how every Christian is called to become a "co-worker with God."'

I cite Zenit, 31 Oct. 2002. Prof. Mark Miraville teaches theology and Mariology at Franciscan University of Stuebenville. He also is president of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici.

Diane, It seems we've come full circle. This thread was part of the "Praying to Mary" thread, and here we are, talking about Mary again. PLEASE read that thread, linked here for further convenience. [icon_arrow.gif] http://forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=1698

Effie and Kell expressed their displeasure because of your refusal to read those who already took their time to explain the Catholic position. If you had read it and had questions that were unaddressed after reading it, we Catholics would be more than willing to discuss. The tone you are getting now from me, and possibly others, is one of frustration and impatience because these questions have been discussed in the thread linked above.

All, I wonder if it might be time to put an end to this thread, but it is not up for me to decide. Let us pray that Satan is not tricking us into anger, and that we may have the grace of God and have the tiniest bit of his infinite patience.

Trying to do whatever He tells me,

Andy K.

He could have read all the posts in this thread himself, for in it I explain my position on this. However, he is now getting frustrated and impatient by his own admission. I am simply not keeping up with the several threads that have opened up on these subjects.

Also, read the Doctrine of Mary forum linked here http://forum.catholic.org/viewforum.php?f=96 It may answer your questions more, and give you a better understanding of the Devotion Catholics (as well as Orthodox and Anglicans) have to Mary.

Trying to do whatever He tells me,

Andy K

There's that word 'Devotion' again.

Diane wrote: Michelle, You seem to be adamant that you do not pray to Mary. Part of your post says,

'Quote: "Did we say that they did? I ask you again where in any of our post did we say that they did? Why do you want to make this out to be something that it is not? In no way do we think that if we are praying to Mary or the saints, we are seeking mediation between us and God for the forgivness of our sin."

Yet below is an example of people praying to Mary, as opposed to praying to God, so that Mary will pray or intercede on their behalf. I found this under the heading 'Devotions to Mary' on this board.

Quote: "I know that many people here pray to Mary or have a devotion to Her. Mary has so many beautiful titles; I think they help us relate to her. So I was curious if people here pray to Mary using a particular title (i.e. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc.) and what drew them to that particular title.

Personally, I feel a devotion to Mary as Our Lady of Czestochowa because I had a series of unexpected encounters with Her image and I believe that She was a strong influence in bringing me back to the Church. (There are details about this in the "making up for lost time" thread in the "Reverts" section, if anyone is interested.) Additionally, I sometimes will address Mary in my prayers as Theotokos, simply because I like the sound of it.

I'm interested to hear how other people pray to Mary."

Notice that the writer acknowledges that people on this board pray to Mary, including herself. They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator". So you can see that I am not the one talking in circles. There are many conflicting views at COL'

How about addressing your comments or questions about Mary in the thread which is entitled "Praying to Mary"? That way this thread can remain better focused on the subject at hand. It will certainly keep everyone from repeating themselves and getting really confused.

And if you wish to discuss this issue further please read the answers already posted to these questions. In that thread the difference between prayer and worship has recently been dealt with if you'd care to look there for it.

If after reading the answers posted there you still have some questions or do not understand we will all be more than happy to help I'm sure.

kell g.

I guess they'd have to explain the difference between 'praying to' and 'asking for prayer from' the individual saints also. They should also explain the differences between 'Devotions' and worship, which I haven't had time to address in this forum. I wonder if they have their own dictionary in which they have re-written the definitions? Why for instance, do they capitalize the word 'Devotions' so often.

I also find it odd - if 'prayer' is just a form of communication, as they say - why they don't use that word when they are referring to speaking to each other. Saying something like, 'I'm going to pray to my girlfriend over the phone, to see if she wants to go out tonight.' Or, 'Jack is going to pray to his friend John about fixing the car.'

Prayer is just a means of communication - it is our telephone line to Heaven, in a manner of speaking.

We can use that telephone line of prayer to speak to anyone who is in Heaven - Mary, or St. Paul or St. Joseph or anyone at all who is there in Heaven.

We also frequently use it when we are speaking to God and making requests, as well as when we are actually worshipping God. (You aren't actually worshipping God when you are asking Him for things; did you ever notice that before? So, prayer and worship are not the same thing, are they?)

We are all one holy nation in Christ, and through His cross and resurrection, we all have eternal life - there is no such thing as a "dead Saint", since they are all alive in Christ. We are all supposed to pray for each other, so it is good to ask others to pray for us to God, not only each other here on earth, but also the Saints.

I hope that this helps you to understand the Catholic position.

In the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Judith Teresa McRae

What these folks haven't realized is that Jesus is our 'vine' or 'telephone line', if you will. And Catholics are attempting to use him as a communication tool without acknowledging him - demanding his work from him, but not recognizing him in that work. All so that Mary can further do Jesus' job of intercessory work. I believe in some cases he is sending them deceiving images to make them believe they are getting answers to their prayers - even though these images do nothing to improve their lives.

Recently, I have heard on the news that tears are being witnessed as comine from a certain statue of Mary. But what good is this doing? What purpose would there be in such an event?

You said to David:

'Quote: "When we ask others to pray for us, here on this earth, we are in effect raising their status in our own eyes. In many cases, people feel they don't know how to pray, and haven't learned to seek the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. It's like less mature Christians giving credit to more mature ones in asking for their help - like a child asking a parent for help. I have told people in past not to ask me to pray for them unless they want the answer - many of them do not want the answer in truth, and get resentful if they don't get the answer they want.

I'm not there to baby-coddle them. They often want out of their dilemma, without having to lift a finger to help themselves. In the same way, you don't want to have to face Jesus, so you go to the saints instead. But in order to receive your healing, you must face Jesus - just like the woman with the issue of blood, or the ancient Isrealites that had to look at the serpent on the stake, to receive their healing."

I have never heard of anyone who thought that praying for others or asking someone to pray for us was wrong in some way??

Do you think then considering your comments above that someone asking someone else to pray for them is idolarty?

And definitely more important I think is your comment above which I highlighted in bold face and blue text.

What exactly do you mean by that?

If they don't want the answer to not ask you??

How do you know the answers???

What answers do you have and how did you get them?

Are you in some veiled way trying to tell us you speak directly to God and He answers you? Directly and plainly?

kell g.

Diane,

Quote: "God speaks 'those things that are not, as though they were'. This is how prophesy works. It is both accurate to say that is has happened, as well as it hasn't yet happened - depending on which side of the mirror you stand on."

Ummm what "mirror" would that be? Do you consider yourself a prophet?

kell g.

Moderator's Comment

Quote: "All, I wonder if it might be time to put an end to this thread, but it is not up for me to decide."

I don't think that's necessary.......yet. But I do think that everyone needs to pray before posting and leave their frustrations at the door.

If we are unwilling to create dialogue with a person who took the time to come here and ask us questions, well then perhaps we shouldn't be posting in these sections.

I sometime feel very sorry for the non-catholics who come here and ask legitimate questions, because they get so many people answering them, it seems that we are ganging up on them.

Diane,

I suggest that the best way for you to get your questions answered is to stick within the topic of the Thread you are posting. There are now several threads going on, each with slightly different topics, intermingling them only causes confusion.

Bob C

COL Staff

Typically, by the time I get one message posted, they have posted three to five more to previous posts.

I did feel a bit overwhelmed with all the intial responses to my two questions. It was more a matter of too much information for me, rather than not enough. But I don't see how I can answer some of the questions that have been returned to me, without going off-topic. Maybe I should open another new thread, entitled 'Questions for Diane'

To the rest of you, I hope you understand that I cannot possibly answer all your questions. I did get my one question answered satisfactorily - how Catholics feel about the Apocrapha - and I still feel that the Bible is directing believers to Jesus as the 'one mediator' in heaven. That said, many of your own questions to me are quite provocative and I wouldn't mind exploring them under a separate heading.

Diane

Diane,

I want you to ask yourself a question. Why are you asking these questions? Is it to try to gain understanding of the Catholic beliefs? Or is to bring us a new insight that you feel that we need?

If it the former, please listen carefully to what is being said. You seem to have missed many of the answers to your objections. If you don't understand what was presented, please ask.

If it's the latter I'd like to point out that many who have responded to you are former Protestants. A couple of people aren't even Catholic - yet. One common misconception of some non-Catholics who come to our forum is that they have a new truth or insight that we have not had the opportunity to hear. The reality is very different. You have not brought up any objections that many on the forum haven't heard before. Not only that, but many here once believed the same things.

The question is why don't they believe as you do anymore? Have they all been deluded by false "spirits"? Perhaps. Or maybe they were led to the truth. Would you like to hear why they left your beliefs and turned to the church?

BTW, I’m a convert. No, I am not a former Protestant. Like many here, I was led to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit.

Effie

Quote: "That said, many of your own questions to me are quite provocative and I wouldn't mind exploring them under a separate heading."

Feel free to start as many new topics as you feel you can handle, Effie and I will do our best to keep the topic on topic.

I would suggest that you start with simplier questions. Mary and her role in the church is not simple, it is very complex. It is easier IMO to first understand how Catholics understand Authority, the role of the pope, the sacraments and many others than it is to understand how we feel about Mary.

Bob C

Diane,

Non-Catholics come here to learn about Catholicism. Can you tell us what you have learned so far that you did not already know?

Robert

Robert D wrote

Quote: "Can you tell us what you have learned so far that you did not already know?"

I think Diane's already answered that question. She wrote in her last reply

Quote: "I did get my one question answered satisfactorily - how Catholics feel about the Apocrapha"

George R

Drat, I forgot to pray before posting that, as Bob C so wisely suggested.

George R

kell g,

Quote: "Ummm what "mirror" would that be?"

The mirror is that which Paul spoke of in Cor 13:12.

Quote: "Do you consider yourself a prophet?"

I do not go by any titles, however when one speaks for God, it cannot be helped but to prophesy at times. We are to speak as though we are speaking the very words of God. All believers were instructed to do this. I do not count myself as being more special than anybody else because of this - more obedient than many perhaps.

Diane

Hi Diane,

You appear to have a full plate so just some quick points and questions for you.

Regarding the one mediatorship of Christ. First off, I believe fully and completely that Jesus is my saviour and my mediator. So let's get that out of the way.

The passage you continually quote is 1 Tim 2:5, which says: "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, Christ Jesus ... "

The Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary gives the definition of the word "mediator" in the NT as: "This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius [a messenger between two parties], an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties". To put it shortly, one who communicates to A on behalf of C. With me so far?

Now, your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:5 goes something like this: "There is only one person who should mediate to God on my behalf and that is Jesus"

My question to you is therefore twofold:

1. Please explain to me how it is that Paul other Christians to pray for him (see Rom 15:30 " Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me ... "). If they do, then they have clearly mediated on Paul's behalf to God, and it wouldn't make it OK if they were alive (here on earth) since they would still be mediating and violating your interpretation of 1 Tim 2:5. 2.

Please explain to me how it is that you can either pray for people or ask them to pray for you, since in either case, someone would be mediating on another's behalf to God.

If you are unable to provide satisfactory answers to these questions, it must mean that there is more to 1 Tim 2:5 than your own interpretation.

You seem to be missing the essential points that everyone here has very patiently tried to explain to you, viz.

1. Catholics do not equate prayer with worship. Prayer is communication (see any Shakespeare play "Pray tell, kind sir ..."). Worship is for God alone. No Catholic here would or should believe otherwise. So consider that perhaps you have your definitions wrong.

2. Catholics do not ask saints or Mary to "save" them, we ask them to pray for us, just as you ask someone to pray for you or you pray for someone else. Salvation is from God alone.

3. Catholics view all departed saints / Mary as still alive in God. You yourself admit that Jesus set others right about the state of the dead (see Mark 12:26-27) explicitly stating that when one is dead, they are not separated from God, but are rather alive in Him.

David S wrote below (and I think you should re-read his post - in fact the whole thread from the beginning): "[you believe that it] is that it's okay for Christians on earth to ask other Christians on earth to pray for them, it's just somehow, "tatamount to usurp Jesus' and the HolySpirit's roles" if we ask departed Christians, who are in God's presence in heaven, to pray for us ...". Think about it ... they are in God's presence !!

I suggest you re-read this and the "Praying to Mary" thread from beginning to end. Should your "mind begin to boggle", take a break and come back to it later. This is not a speed reading contest. You can take your time with reading. At least you will if your intention is to learn, rather than to debate.

Yours in Christ,

André

Though he says he understands that I have 'my plate full' he apparently forgets this and is decidedly, not quick. Neither has he read the entire thread here, even though he suggests I go back and read the entire thread elsewhere. I decide not to address him.

Effie,

Quote: "I want you to ask yourself a question. Why are you asking these questions? Is it to try to gain understanding of the Catholic beliefs? Or is to bring us a new insight that you feel that we need?"

It was certainly to gain understanding about Catholic beliefs - more specifically, to settle a question that came up in a Bible study I am part of, in the matter of the Apocrapha. But I found myself in a quagmire of accusations against Martin Luther and the Protestant movement which surprised me - so I attempted to defend Luther and the movement a bit, since I am Protestant myself. My mistake I suppose.

Quote: "You have not brought up any objections that many on the forum haven't heard before. Not only that, but many here once believed the same things.

The question is why don't they believe as you do anymore?"

That is a good question Effie. And if you sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit led you here - what were the signs or the evidence that indicate this to you. For myself, I go by his personal direction - the Spirit actually tells me which church to attend, and to not give up even though the doctrine may be wrong in many respects. He assures me that he will support me when I've followed his direction to correct them, or in healing or whatever. This can be a very powerful ally - this vindication.

Diane

Quote: "And if you sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit led you here - what were the signs or the evidence that indicate this to you."

I'm not Effie, but I wanted to share with you that I converted from a Protestant denomination less than two years ago, by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I had a very powerful experience from the Holy Spirit on November 29th, 2000 that led me to want to become Catholic.

Of course, I needed to test the Spirit to see if it was really from God, so it was several months between that event and the time that I actually became Catholic.

My conversion story is at http://reid.freeyellow.com/

You can find other people's conversion stories at Steve Ray's Catholic Converts web site, at http://www.catholic-convert.com/Stories_Others.asp

And, of course, many people on this web site include their conversion stories in their introductions on the introductions page on COL.

In the Sacred Heart of Jesus,

Judith Teresa McRae

Diane,

Quote: "That is a good question Effie. And if you sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit led you here - what were the signs or the evidence that indicate this to you. For myself, I go by his personal direction - the Spirit actually tells me which church to attend, and to not give up even though the doctrine may be wrong in many respects. He assures me that he will support me when I've followed his direction to correct them, or in healing or whatever. This can be a very powerful ally - this vindication."

Now that is going to take me a long time to answer - I hope you like long posts. Give me a day or two and I'll respond, probably on a seperate thread in the converts section.

Effie

Hi Diane,

I’m the author of the piece you quoted:

Quote: "I know that many people here pray to Mary or have a devotion to Her. Mary has so many beautiful titles; I think they help us relate to her. So I was curious if people here pray to Mary using a particular title (i.e. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc.) and what drew them to that particular title.

Personally, I feel a devotion to Mary as Our Lady of Czestochowa because I had a series of unexpected encounters with Her image and I believe that She was a strong influence in bringing me back to the Church. (There are details about this in the "making up for lost time" thread in the "Reverts" section, if anyone is interested.) Additionally, I sometimes will address Mary in my prayers as Theotokos, simply because I like the sound of it.

I'm interested to hear how other people pray to Mary."

I wasn’t planning on getting involved in this discussion, (simply because I usually don’t debate this issues online, although I often discuss them with non-Catholic friends). However, I kind of feel like you dragged me into this one.

You made this comment about my note:

Diane wrote: "Notice that the writer acknowledges that people on this board pray to Mary, including herself. They are not praying to God, and not asking for Jesus to be the "one mediator"."

I do pray to Mary. I ask for her guidance. And I ask her to pray for me. My prayers are imperfect, because I struggle with my faith and do not pray as well as I should. Mary’s prayers are perfect, because she is with God, who lovingly granted her all virtues. So I ask her to help me pray.

But this doesn’t mean that I do not pray to God. I pray to God often, more often than I pray to Mary. And it certainly doesn’t mean that I don’t see Jesus as the “one mediator”. It does mean that I don’t view prayer as mediation.

As a Catholic, my truest and most powerful encounters with Christ are through the sacraments, particularly Reconciliation and Holy Communion. In Reconciliation, Christ forgives me of my failings and heals me of my spiritual pains. I do not ask Mary or the saints for forgiveness or for healing. These things are not theirs to give. And in Holy Communion, I receive the Real Presence of Christ. Jesus comes to me in a very intimate and special way. In the Eucharist I experience my salvation through Christ. Salvation does not come from Mary and the saints.

I wonder if you read my post in the Reverts section (which I referred to in the bit you quoted. It might help you understand my personal experience on this issue.

If you have a question about something I wrote in any of my posts on any thread, please ask me directly. I was startled to find myself an involuntary participant in this thread.

Lolly

Diane,

Thank you for answering my questions. I'm afraid I am still a little confused sadly.

See all this is basically new to me, I am converting to Catholicism. But saying I am converting doesn't really do me justice I don't think. Because I am not leaving a set form of religious beliefs for Catholicsim.

I was basically agnostic until a couple of years ago. My upbringing was a constant rejection of religion more or less. My father was and is an agnostic also and my mother and her family are LDS (Mormon) which I rejected at a very early age.

I have many friends who are Christians, Protestants, and I tried that on for size a few times. It just didn't fit for me. So I began to study early Christianity which lead to inquire about the Catholic Church. Upon study of Catholicism I realized that is where I should be. I found the Apostolic Succession and the unchanged truth and doctrine of the Catholic Church handed down for over 2000 years. It having never been altered by a man ever spoke volumes to me.

Anyway that in a nutshell it a very brief summary of me.

Considering my newness to faith and God really I hope you can grasp why some of this is hard for me to understand. And I hope you will bear with my questions for a little longer.

Quote: "I do not go by any titles, however when one speaks for God, it cannot be helped but to prophesy at times. We are to speak as though we are speaking the very words of God. All believers were instructed to do this. I do not count myself as being more special than anybody else because of this - more obedient than many perhaps."

Okay I didn't think you were saying or claiming yourself to be better than anyone else or more special. Is the word prophet close though to what you feel you are?

I'm just struggling to understand and can't think of how to word that without using a 'title' so to speak. I'm not trying to label you.

you said to Effie:

Quote: "For myself, I go by his personal direction - the Spirit actually tells me which church to attend, and to not give up even though the doctrine may be wrong in many respects. He assures me that he will support me when I've followed his direction to correct them, or in healing or whatever. This can be a very powerful ally - this vindication."

Okay now in your opinion is it possible for me to actually hear the Holy Spirit as you do? If so what do I need to do to acheive that do you think?

Can you heal people?

Is that something you believe that I would also be able to do if I learn how to hear the Holy Spirit?

I agree that would be an extremely powerful ally, very definitely. And I would imagine most people would like to experience this vindication also.

I apologize for throwing many questions at you I just would really love to grasp what you mean better.

God bless you.

kell g.

Quote: "It was certainly to gain understanding about Catholic beliefs - more specifically, to settle a question that came up in a Bible study I am part of, in the matter of the Apocrapha. But I found myself in a quagmire of accusations against Martin Luther and the Protestant movement which surprised me - so I attempted to defend Luther and the movement a bit, since I am Protestant myself. My mistake I suppose."

Did you get your answer if all you wanted to know was what we felt about it? From what I can gather you are saying here is you didn't expect all the history about how the removal came about, you just wanted to know if we used them or not, and if so how, am I correct?

I think maybe we went off track because, usually when were faced with that question nine times out of ten, we will hear, not, do we use them, but "don't you know you Catholics changed the bible". So you have to forgive us for being defensive, as Efiie said, we go through the same debates over and over with those that think this will be the first time we have ever heard this before.

The fact is yes we use them, no they are not separate, and we think that they are inspired. We have used them from the beginning and they remained part of the Holy Scripture until Martin Luther removed them somewhere around the 16th century. Why Martin Luther removed them is a whole another ball of wax.

Now that we have that out of the way,

Quote: "That is a good question Effie. And if you sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit led you here - what were the signs or the evidence that indicate this to you. For myself, I go by his personal direction - the Spirit actually tells me which church to attend, and to not give up even though the doctrine may be wrong in many respects. He assures me that he will support me when I've followed his direction to correct them, or in healing or whatever. This can be a very powerful ally - this vindication."

On what authority are you operating from that will tell you if a doctrine is wrong or not? I think this goes back to the question I asked you before, if you are in a church that claims they are being lead by the spirit, and you are also claiming to be lead by the spirit, then what is the authority that makes you right and them wrong?

If a may repeat an analogy I used before, Fire in your fire place is a wonderful thing, it can serve for many good beautiful things, but if you take it out of the fire place and put it in the middle of your living room, it will burn your house down. So is the same with the guidance of the spirit, out side of the Church, one might not actually go where he is leading.

Michelle

I am starting a new thread to answer this one. Look for your name in the subject heading.

Diane

Moderator's suggestion

It's usually best to have these discussions online rather than via email. Just a suggestion.

Effie

Diane wrote:

Quote: "I am also going to start a new thread to answer this one. Or you could write me personally in which case I'll be sure to give it top priority. Look for your name in the subject heading. With the others I have promised to answer, it may take a little time - tonight or tomorrow perhaps."

If this addressed to me I must tell you I do not do personal e-mails with anyone on issues such as these. Honestly I find it much more productive to discuss all these things here on COL so that everyone can benefit from it.

I'm sure you certainly do not wish to leave anyone out of something which may be benefical to them or their salvation. I can assure I am not the only interested in your answers to these questions and you and I or you and anyone else continue these talks in e-mail they lose out in hearing the answers.

COL policy prevents us from posting personal e-mails online here without the Administrators permission and each of the e-mailer's permission.

Basically in my opinion that is way too much hassle for me and for any Administrator.

So let's keep our discussion online if you don't mind please, unless you would perfer we drop it altogether.

kell g.

Michelle,

Quote: "If a may repeat an analogy I used before, Fire in your fire place is a wonderful thing, it can serve for many good beautiful things, but if you take it out of the fire place and put it in the middle of your living room, it will burn your house down. So is the same with the guidance of the spirit, out side of the Church, one might not actually go where he is leading."

Nice analogy.

Effie

Diane,

BTW, Kell is right, you should not post your email online. I took it out of your post. You can set your profile so that anyone who wants it can access it.

Effie

The policy board states that we are not to post our snail mail adresses or URL's - stating nothing about email addresses. This little discrepancy is never addressed.

About this time, I am refused posting priveleges. They tell me that I have been banned because I point out scriptures that would reveal certain truths about the Lord God/God. At least one other person on the thread agrees with me on this, though is not chastized. However, the real reason appears to be concerned more with an attempt I make at correcting a 'Father' in his post. They deduce that I am presuming myself to be a 'teacher' - and immediately I am refused privileges.

You took it out of the original post, but not out of the subsequent quote in Kell's post. Just thought I'd give your eyes a head's up...

Elsie

emurphy wrote:

Michelle,

Quote: "'If a may repeat an analogy I used before, Fire in your fire place is a wonderful thing, it can serve for many good beautiful things, but if you take it out of the fire place and put it in the middle of your living room, it will burn your house down. So is the same with the guidance of the spirit, out side of the Church, one might not actually go where he is leading.'

Nice analogy.

Effie"

Effie, Thanks, but it is not my own. The first time I heard it, it was used to descibe sex outside of marriage to teen agers.

Michelle

Diane:

I have read your inquiries and sent to your e-mail some essays I have written which address and answer many of the questions you have.

Be careful, and always pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you! But could you tell me what is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, according to the Bible?

TIM

Tim,

Quote: "I have read your inquiries and sent to your e-mail some essays I have written which address and answer many of the questions you have."

Why not just address these issues here online where others can benefit from them?

kell g.

My hotmail will not allow me to open attachments, which apparently was the way he sent it.

So far, I have written my testimony, followed by:

I. The Eucharist

II. On this Rock: Church Authority

III. The Bible And I've almost completed:

IV. Salvation: Grace under Fire (Dealing with questions about salvation; covenant; the reason WHY God had to take flesh and dwell among us to atone for our sins -- He very well could have just said, "I love you so I forgive you" but He didn't...)

And soon to come (much elaboration to add):

V. Issues that Divide us (The Mother of God, Communion of Saints, Contraception, Confession, and other issues).

VI. Faith and Calling (More on my personal walk with Christ, growing in Christ, our relationship as Children of God)

A few people from this website have read them and I've gotten really good "reviews" from Protestants who are now sold on the Catholic Church's interpretation of the Eucharist (NOT a symbol) and a visible Church based on Biblical and historical evidence.

Timothée/Timothy/Timotei/Timoteo